Chines invasion

[Zucker Bee]

It seems that Chinese equipement is flooding the market now. We need an extra tank and we are a bit hesitative... or should we? Every major companies and brokers now import those tanks. How can we be sure of what we are buying?

Sure there's alot of money to be saved, but how low can we go before it really matter? For two very similar tanks, with the same blows&whistles, the price difference can be up 20% !

I don't know how far this forum can go, since many industry companies contributes in different ways here, but any feedbacks toward some of the fermenters under "Equipement for sale" thread would be appreciated. Please feel free to reply, here or thru private message (if bitching ;) )

Cheers!

Zb

[bootleg]

And after seeing their work ethics, I would say attention to detail is as good as you are prepared to pay for, just like anywhere, same at your house! You want a cheap job, they can pump it out as fast as you like, you want quality, then you pay.
A local relationship with a stainless engineer is always very important.
You have got to remember, if you don't pay the local welder to make some tanks then he won't be able to afford to drink your beer!!!!

[Lex]

Could the materials & craftsmanship be any worse than a pub system (my apologies for churning up memories of older post).

[Zucker Bee]

Travelling across the continent to check weldings adds another 2000$ to the final invoice... (expensive for a 10bbl)

Isn't there a way of trusting what is being sold?

That being said, and the name "pub brewing" already put out, would anyone trust those tanks sold by Ager (imported from China?)? My guess is that those guys wouldn't ruin their reputation, and must have inspected them before doing business with them.

Any thoughts on that?

Zb

[lhall]

There are plenty of customers using tanks made in China. Contact Jason Ager or Ian Day at NABS and ask for a current customer list, and then talk to brewers who have purchased these tanks.

[realale]

We have ordered 6 and already received 4 tanks from Allied Tank, which is the Ian Day (NABS)/ Alan Dikty (ABT) group and we are very satisfied with the tanks, service and the pricing. We have had 1 - 120 BBL bright tank and 1- 120bbl uni-tank on line since march of this year. We have had two additional 120 bbl uni-tanks on line since April and we are expecting 2 more 120 bbl unis the first of September. We have found that Alan and Ian are
a pleasure to work with and they are very responsive to our needs. We also are very happy with some of the design ideas that they were able to bring to the table. Most notably the idea of having the glycol connections on the cone come out parallel to the floor, instead of at whatever angle the cone is at where the fitting is attached, like all of our other tanks (Specific Mechanical, DME, etc). Feel free to contact me with any question regarding the tanks, my only suggestion regardless of who you go with, be very clear about what you want, get everything in writing and spend a couple of days reviewing the drawings and make sure they are accurate before they are approved. I have included Allied's contact information if you are interested.


Alan S. Dikty
Allied Beverage Tanks, Inc.
1751-D Howard Street, No. 200
Chicago, IL 60626 USA
Tel: +1.773.465.7285
Fax: +1.773.465.7387
interbev@mac.com


Brad Farbstein
Real Ale Brewing Co
brad@realalebrewing.com

[sinobrew]

we solved this problem by inspecting all welding works in our warehouse in China, close to Hong Kong before sending to our Californian or European warehouses. Also, later is guarantied by local US or European company, not Chinese. Tanks are shipped in our containers, not directly from manufacturer

[pennbrew2]

I had a local fabricator work up a quote on a 60 bbl tank. It came in a lot higher than a tank quoted from China (with delivery!).

I then showed him the quote from China, he said he couldn't even buy the materials for that price.

I understand about cheaper labor, etc., but I don't understand how these tanks can be so much cheaper to make half a world away and ship over here. I mean stainless is still stainless, right?

---Guy

[sinobrew]

Guy

not always stailess steel is a same. Typical most common used in China for gates, windows, craters, fences are from SUS201 or SUS202, much cheaper and can corrode in 1-2 years. Food grade tanks should be made from SUS304 or even SUS316.

Google for them and you will find compositions

For beer tanks typical used material is SUS304, tanks made from SUS316 can be 35% more expensive. Most valves are made from 316

Be careful about some small operators, they are making tanks from much cheaper 201 and stamping as 304

jan

[pennbrew2]

No, in both instances the quoted tanks were 304 stainless, 2b finish.

So you're saying the Chinese tanks are so much cheaper because the manufacturers are using an inferior stainless steel and lying about it?

That's interesting.

---Guy

[sinobrew]

NO, I didn't say this, it may happen, just be careful

It happen to me with other SS product. Most people are honest, some are less

Chinese production are also much less expensive, not only labor. SS cost here much less than in US. Also, I got 1/3 lower quotation when inside 3th cooling wall will be made from regular steel, not from 304 and this is invisible from outside. Life time for this way build tank is only 5 years because will start leaking glycol

[Zucker Bee]

I've started his thread a year ago.

Yes, there is good stuff and bad stuff out there, I have to agree and I'm not saying that everything out of China is bad.

I already shared my experience, saddly, with our purchase from Ager / Blackstone on another thread. Follow this link: http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6481


Zb

[pennbrew2]

Wow, ZB, what a nightmare!

What has the seller done to make it right? Any restitution?

I'm surprised Jason hasn't replied publicly to your posts. After all it's his reputation on the line...

[AgerTank]

This is the first I have heard of the problems you have had with tanks from me - If indeed I sold them to you. Send me a private email or better yet call me tomorrow AM and let me know who you are so that we can make it right. My business is based upon word of mouth references and we value our reputation. We inspect almost all of the used equipment we sell (unlike almost every other used equipment dealer). We also buy much of the used equipment we sell, so we have our own money tied up in a product we feel is worth buying. We also inspect every new tank that we have built overseas and we purchase these tanks for inventory most of the time. This means that we buy a container of 7 bbl, 10 bbl or 30 bbl tanks, make inspection when they are finished, and ship them to Portland, Or to resell. We do this so that we know what condition the tank is in when it leaves our shop. I will say it again - send me private email of call me in the morning so I can know who you are zucker bee, and I will try to assist.

Thanks,
Jason

[lhall]

My experience with Ager has been very positive. We purchased a labeller that was missing several expensive parts when it arrived. Jason made it right by purchasing them new from Krones on his own dime.

[Zucker Bee]

I've started his thread a year ago.

Yes, there is good stuff and bad stuff out there, I have to agree and I'm not saying that everything out of China is bad.

I already shared my experience, saddly, with our purchase from Ager / Blackstone on another thread. Follow this link: http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6481


Zb
No need to follow this link, it seems I've been censored, but I still don't understand why.

[Moonlight]

My 20 bbl fermenter from GW Kent is pretty sweet. It was not the cheapest Chinese tank, but I wanted a top quality tank. It has better function and far superior workmanship than I have ever seen in the States. Virtually impeccable. 60% the cost of a tank made locally. The choice was obvious.

[Gregg]

I know I am a little idealistic on this, possibly even naive, but I am surprised at how many people in what is essentially a local-scale market do not see the wider implications of buying "foreign" products for their business. To put it a little simplistically, if price were the only consideration, no-one would buy microbrew, yet we are happy to make price the deciding criterion in our own purchasing.

In the interest of honest disclosure, I should acknoweldge that I am setting up a U.K.-based brewery using some equipment manufactured in Canada, but... uhhh... there are sound business reasons for doing that, and price is not one of them!

Gregg

[brewbong]

Who'll make the shoes for your feet?
Who'll make the clothes that you wear?
Who will take a mountain and drag it to the sea?
Don't look now 'cause it ain't you or me.
We are all victims of our own hypocrisy.

[MVKTR2]

Well it's real easy to figure out... A steel beam construction worker in China earns $15 US a day. The same employee in the US earns twice that an hour. China's working population is approaching the 1 Billion mark and most of them are told in what industry and where they will work. Yes sitting in a factory working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week for 1/20th of the wage that a worker doing the same job in the developed world would earn gives the Chinese a distinct economic advantage. It's the same principal that keeps the illegal immigrant population protected in America. Businesses want the cheap labor, and China's cheap labor can't leave making it essentially slave labor. That's right companies of the world operating in a "new world wide marketplace" have to compete with slave labor and governments unwilling to recognize the fact or do anything to protect them....

Stepping down from high horse now,
Phillip

[brewbong]

A couple of things you left out:
The fact that they can take our raws, manufacture and ship back for fraction puts them at an economic advantage, and allows for sustainability. We are so addicted to China-wear that we have competed ourselves out of our own market. The marginal, in many cases, difference in quality does not outweigh the enormous difference in price.

While the Chinese cannot be faulted for being opportunistic, the labor movement in this great nation went awry when organized crime took over the unions. Buy American, and remove the unions from the equation, then we can compete.

Oh, and they get to eat Chinese food everyday.

[fullmoonwinery]

i'm buying 3 tanks from china right now along with a PU panel room, chillers, and bottling machines. this is from my PI:

Item Name: Stainless steel fermenting tank FOB Ningbo
Capacity: 3000L
Spec.: SUS 304,three layers with 2 plate type liquid
level gauge,and digital display thermometer and
pressure gauge
3units USD 6,490.00 USD 19,470.00

i think that's a sweet deal, will have to see how they look when they arrive.

tanks are pretty simple i think, bottle filler is a bit more of a headache, that's why i'm going to Shanghai tomorrow to check it out.

i'll report after we are up and running, let you know how it all works out.

[Airidini]

Not all tanks are equal. Nowa days, it seems you are getting what you pay for, especially when it comes out of China. China's stainless steel industry does make sub-par standard tanks but calls it 304SS (or atleast the person selling you the tank would have you believe what you are buying is 304SS) I have seen reciepts of sale from US vendors selling what appears to be 304SS vessels but clearly after some time in use and cleaning the tank begins to actually rust! Even placing a magnet on the exterior of the tank it sticks (by magnetism) is a tell tell sign that the purity of the metal contains iron. Be very careful from who you buy your tanks and dig around to find out who else has bought similar tanks from the same vendor. I really have seen tanks begin rusting in less than four months from installation.

[gitchegumee]

First of all, Iron is the "base malt" of stainless steel. Most stainless steels are about 74% Iron with the remaining being 18% Chromium and 8% Nickel. There are many grades of stainless steel, but 304 is the most widely used. 300 series "austenitic" stainless can be weakly magnetic where welding has taken place. 400 series "martensitic" are strongly magnetic, as are "ferritic" stainless steels. Signs of rust on fermenters are usually due to non-separation of carbon steel parts & tools from stainless steel. Using a carbon steel brush, for example will cause eventual rusting where it has been used on stainless. There are some portable machines that can sample steel and report whether they meet chemical composition requirements of a particular grade of steel. If you're worried, get a lab to confirm--it's not expensive. That being said, there are mechanical considerations to stainless as well. Tensile strength is specified for different grades of stainless, however I don't think they are as important due to rather low stresses tanks endure. Make sure you witness a hydrostatic test to at least 1.5 maximum allowable working pressure. This can be a defacto mechanical properties confirmation. And BTW, I'll use Chinese tanks way before I'll drink Chinese beer. Good luck!

[fullmoonwinery]

my first 3 tanks have arrived from china and they look great. they weigh a freekin' ton (300kg of 304 stainless to be exact). i haven't started brewing yet, still waiting for the permits, but visually they look really well made. the welding looks fantastic.

i also got the PU panel room and chillers from china a few weeks ago and they are fine too.

the only major issue i would say with chinese stuff so far is the total and utter lack of technical support. the sales girls on skype know how to type English ok but cannot explain anything. no manuals are provided in English and when you ask questions the standard answer is, 'oh, its very easy, i'm sure you can work it out' or something to that effect.

usually, i have to dismantle the equipment to figure out what makes it tick then i usually can figure it out, but a bit of explanation would save a lot of time on my end.

anyhow, the sales girls try to be helpful and nice so i usually write an English manual for them so hopefully their next customers will not be as confused as i am.

[Natrat]

Those look like they have a side manway AND a top manway, though the top ways look like they don't seal from the inside.

Keep an eye on the gasket on those top manways...not only for extrusion, but also for cleanliness.

Cheers!

Nat

[Valleybrew]

Am I blind or is there no rotating racking arm on the these tanks? It looks just like a straight draw off tube half way up cone. Looks like a window port on cone?

[South County]

Am I blind or is there no rotating racking arm on the these tanks? It looks just like a straight draw off tube half way up cone. Looks like a window port on cone?


There is a bottom port you can see the support leader hanging from the leg cross bar, a side port parallel to the floor and a window, why all the ports are to the side where you cant get them makes no sense to me. odd tanks!

[Capt. Bob]

Let's see...
Toys laced with toxic lead paint, drywall made with toxic chemicals, Deadly dog food, baby formula with toxic ingredients....All within the past couple of years.
What's not to trust?

[Natrat]

Let's see...
Toys laced with toxic lead paint, drywall made with toxic chemicals, Deadly dog food, baby formula with toxic ingredients....All within the past couple of years.
What's not to trust?

Yeah...but...

also all your beloved iPhones, parts to keep your F-150 running, the computer I'm using here (and probably yours too)...the fact is, China supplies a great deal of what we take for granted.

Yes, there will be quality problems. Remember when Japanese cars hit America? It takes about 20 years to ramp quality into start-from-scratch components. Glory-be, if it wasn't about 20 years ago that these industrial products appeared from China. And Taiwan. No one would buy a taiwan made motorcycle just a few years ago, and now Kymco makes engines for BMW and KTM!
We know that many of the brew equipment companies with great reps are getting their tanks made in China. And no one seems to have any real trouble with them...I have heard stories, but I've never been able to track down the source, which makes them hearsay. I mention Chinese brewhouses to other brewers and they say "you don't want that ***t!" but then they have never actually seen one or brewed on one. Even a few German breweries have bought chinese equipment.

Who do we trust? I'd like to say that I only trust myself (and I'm probably pretty good with a background in metallurgy and welding as well as chemical engineering...I've been around process vessels my whole life) but the fact is that other people I trust have recommended some chinese equipment to me. And offered it at a third the price I am used to paying. Which means instead of expanding my production by one fermenter, I can have 3!

There are some great beers being made on Chinese equipment, and I don't see people on this forum yelling and screaming about problems...and I still read about PUB and Bohemian system problems. I am starting to realize that either there is a massive conspiracy to hide information about this stuff, or it's really good. Occam's Razor suggests the latter.

Mind you, try to get a look at the drawings before they build the tanks...it seems like they like to build a lot of options into them...:-)

ok, just another rant...

Nat

[jbs]

Our China made FVs came with warped manway doors so they wouldn't seal. The manufacturer told us to pound the doors with a sledge hammer----yeah right. It took some strategic driving with our forklift to make them seal. Inspect your tanks before you get them.

[liammckenna]

Inspect your tanks before you get them.

Good advice, regardless of origin.

Pax.

Liam

[Dough In]

I was just in China and inspected a few factories that manufacture brewing equipment. What I can warn about is Mild steel being used in "unseen" places like the inside of the legs of the tanks. Mild steel legs are welded directly onto the SS outer wall and then clad with SS, thus "Hiding" the steel. Use a magnet to check. I also saw SS sheeting being rolled on the same rollers that mild steel is rolled on. Not good. Any SS will rust if this is done. Same goes with polishing stones, grinders etc. Also many of the welds on i.e glycol jackets and steam jackets were not properly acid passivated and would eventually rust and screw everything up.
My conclusion on buying something from China, not having any references to check stateside and/or not being able to travel there to inspect (as said an additional 2K)??? DON'T BUY IT.