name that spoiler!!!

[davidmeyers]

That's right folks! Time to play our favorite game, "Name That Spoiler!"

It has a "cheesy" taste (very subtle, only myself and a few others can detect it) and a mild metallic aroma which can also be detected in the finish. It's happened on one other occasion, and here is the kicker...Head does not survive in the glass at all! A nice golden ale winds up looking like apple juice. Still feels well carbonated in the mouth, and it has the right body (in terms of residuals and viscosity). Bubbles can be seen through the glass, but a nice rocky, foamy head of pearls disappears completely after about 2 minutes! Swirl the glass to agitate, you get fizzing, but no lace.
Once again, this has happened to me twice in the past 4 months. I am convinced the lack of head and off-flavors are not a coincidence. The last time this happened, the beer was salvageable, but I can only offer a blank stare when patron's asked, "Where's the head?" Does anybody know what this is, and what may be the cause?

[hophead.jason]

My first guess would be old or poorly stored hops. Hops oxidized during storage are infamous for their "cheesy" character. They could also contribute to an increase in fatty acids in the beer, which while necessary for yeast multiplication at the onset of fermentation, wreak havoc on foam stability if still present in the finished beer. Were both batches brewed using the same hops? Particularly if the hops were added post-fermentation (i.e. dry hopping) it would make sense that the lipids could spill over to the finished beer and destroy your head. Not sure about the metallic taste but, assuming that too was found in both batches (and not others), I would assume it to be a related problem. Good luck!

[davidmeyers]

don't think it's hops. Used the same hops (dry hopped as well) and did not arrive with similar problems. And yes, all 3 (lack of foam, metal and cheese) were present both times.

[jarviw]

cheesy, what type of cheese? (name that cheese.. :D )

can you do a pH reading of your beer? maybe it's your yeast autolyzing... that will explain the lack of head and other funny flavor.

[Greenbrewmonkey]

I agree with everyone so far. My first thought was old hops, after that I thought dead or dying yeast spilling its guts, if you will, out into your beer.

Keep that yeast happy!

Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[davidmeyers]

Interesting you mention yeast. It is a wheat beer (unfiltered). I was always taught that dead or dying yeast tastes and smells like burning rubber, so I didn't consider that as a possibility. The smell and taste improved as the beer clarified itself (not to a clear state, but less cloudy as it settled). The type of cheese is indistinct, but I have eaten nutrient yeast before (back when I was a vegetarian) and it is reminiscent. Nutrient yeast is of course fortified autolyzed brewer's yeast, sometimes described as having a "cheesy" taste. OK, so how could this have happened? I disn't do anything out of the ordinary, here. What could cause a fresh yeast strain to autolyze in the first batch? Hmmmmmm :confused:

[JoeV]

Did you store this beer on the lees (yeast) longer than the other batches? The longer the beer is on the yeast after fermentation is complete the more autolysis there is. How many times have you re-pitched this yeast? Are you cropping from the bottom, middle or top of the cone for re-pitching. If you are convinced its from bacterial contamination why do a streak plate and see if you grow anything "cheesy"?

[mr.jay]

Had a strikingly similar problem once! You may find it somewhere in the archives here. The yeast diagnosis makes the most sense, since it was an isolated incident with a first gen. yeast. The importaint thing here, David, is to retrace your steps, and do a thourogh scrub-a-dub-dub on anything the beer made contact with, just to be sure you don't have a bug, and meticulously clean your lines if you began serving the beer before the problem presented symptoms. Perhaps, you may need to dispose of a few gaskets.
A geeky footnote: How and why does autolized yeast affect foam stability? And why the metallic taste? :rolleyes: Inquiring minds want to know.

[johnstuart]

I would normaly call "old hops" for Isovaleric Acid (cheesy) but, the head retention issue rings a bell. I think I have seen this before, in one of my wheat beers.

What was your percentage of Wheat, may I ask? Hard red wheat? or soft white wheat? Also, you say the yeast was fresh, but of how many generations?

Cheers, John

[jarviw]

How and why does autolized yeast affect foam stability?

there are lots of enzymes inside the yeast, one of them protease. protease chops down all the large sized proteins, therefore killing your foam (coarser foam). also, there are fatty acids inside the cell/cell wall, and others annoying stuff best not in the beer...

live yeast is actually good for the foam and lacing, but dead one isn't.

try it though! bottle condition a couple bottles, heat one bottle to kill the yeast, and then pour both... see how it goes.

[davidmeyers]

So John, you have seen this before, eh? I used 55% white wheat malt. I also used 30% munich, 12% carapils and 3% acidulated. This formula worked well in the past. Everything was consistent with past brews. I did, however, use a uni-tank (my dish was occupied) for the entire duration which I don't normally do. The yeast was BRAND SPANKING NEW first generation Bavarian Wheat yeast.

I am intrigued, John (and excited. Looks like I am getting closer to solving this puzzle) , what happened in your case, and what does the % and type of wheat have to do with this?

[Jephro]

According to my handy dandy "Beer FlavourActiv Flavorfile" a metallic flavor is "Derived from contact of beer with metal-containing materials (brewing plant, raw materials). Metallic notes can also be derived from lipid oxidation products." It also states "..High concentrations of metal ions in beer also affect foam quality and promote the formation of stale flavours."

Food for thought..

[johnstuart]

For many years I used Red Wheat in a 50-50 blend, with American pale malt. No problems. Always used WLP300 (or the Wyeast equiv.) The beers wern't awesome, but they were passable. When I went all German Malts in '96, I started using using a soft white wheat, because that's what they had. I had not addressed mashing temps in awhile as well. Usually mashed in the high 150's, typical for my flagship ales. On at least one occasion I produced a wheat beer with no head retention, extremely hazy, and it seem to leave kind of an "oil-slick" on the side of the glass. Tasted fine, but a really odd appearance.

One year, (I only made Hefe-weizen once or twice a year) the valve that fed cold water to my brewhouse manifold stuck slightly open, and fed cold water into my strike water while mashing in. I didn't notice until I ended up with a mash temp of 138-140. Freaked out, I heated the HLT to 200, and did an infusion that brought it up to 151. Deciding that was good enough, I lautered it off, and immediatly noticed the wort was near perfect, bright, clear, with excellent extract. The result was a much better wheat beer than previous ones.

I derived from this experience that my high mash temps were supressing protase activity and that this haze was some how protein related. The white wheat seems to have a greater problem than the red.

I lowered my mash temp to 145 the next time, and all has been well since then.

The other thought is that your low malt mash isn't providing enough aminos for a first time yeast.

Just some thoughts. I might be out on a limb here. Others probably know better. Seems to me any kind of infection would have a noticable flavor effect

[Moonlight]

Using yeast nutrient? Confirm your procedures with yeast supplier as it seems like a yeast breakfast issue. Taste the settled yeast and see if the flavor is in that.

[davidmeyers]

it IS (rather, it was) definitely strongest in the yeast! What is this about bad breakfast, Moonlight? I used Servomyces in the kettle.

[Moonlight]

Assuming correct amount of Servo, it sounds like a temp/oxy/viability/pitching rate issue. My reference is to how some mornings can be, especially without coffee, bacon, warm socks, proper music,or whatever we each find necessary to start the day and be productive. In that regard, I think we're much the same as yeast.

[liammckenna]

Wild yeast infection - marker compound is indeed isovaleric acid, metallic flavour also common with Brettanomyces infection,

See thread titled 'mystery cheese' .

Pax.

Liam