Filter Frustrations

[NYSBrewer]

I am in 7bbl brewpub and recently have started filtering my beers on a 2sq Della. In the past, I have only filtered one beer, a Kolsch and have not had any problems. The kolsch does get a long, cold condition, sometimes up to three weeks. I have 5 fermenters, 3 7bbls, and 2 14bbls. I like to keep 8-10 house beers on at all times, so as you can imagine, I really dont have time to cold condition the other beers for very long. The problem I am having I cant get more than a couple barrels through the filter before it slows to a trickle and stops filtering. The plunger on the out sight glas drops from 50hl/hour to 30/hr in a matter of minutes and then beer moves to a trickle. I am using FW-50 for a body feed, and FW-12 for dosing. My initial thoughts are there is just simply too much yeast in the beer I am trying to get through. Are there any other ideas as to why I am having this issue? Any solutions? I am ready to bang this thing into the ground.........

[Graydon]

Find a local brewer that has run DE filters and ask them to come and run a batch with you. DE filters can be a real pain. There are many tricks and you can probably get some help for a lunch and a few beers.

Graydon

[BrewinLou]

How long are recircing for your precoat? Have you tried starting very slow with your dose turned up all the way? How long does it take to run a normal batch of Kolsch? Off the top of my head that sounds like you are running it really fast. What are your starting pressures, do you have a hose hooked up to equalize the two tanks?

[jrbeck]

I think the tip the other poster gave you about getting a mentor is the best. Always better to have someone there to work with.

Beyond that, here are some things to try:
1. Do you have the equipment to do cell counts? Do one prior to filtration on all your batches. This will give you some insight into what you lies ahead of you during filtration. Obviously, less cells equals less pressure rise (or drop in flowrate) during filtration. Then you can make informed decisions about longer crashing times, fining, etc.
2. Put more DE in your filter. Either use a thicker slurry or higher dose rate, or both.
3. Slow down your output. When I run my DE filter I split the filtered output between the hose to the BBT and recirculation back into the filter. Then I can fine tune the ratio as necessary to achieve proper clarity and pressure rise. This is connected to how much DE you dose in as you filter.

These are really your variables: how much 'stuff' you need to filter out of the beer, how much DE your add to your filter, and how fast you filter. Play with those variables (start conservative and then get aggressive) and you will find the 'sweet spot.'

Cheers,
Jason

[NYSBrewer]

I am recircing my precoat for about 20 min, the precoat stage seems to go fine, all the DE in the dosing tank goes into the bell, and I wait till i have a clear sight glass, and a clear dosing tank. I have tried starting off slow, same result. I am filtering carbonated beers, so yes the tanks are equalized. I takes just over an hour to filter a batch of the kolsh, when things are running properly.

[NYSBrewer]

As for asking for help, the only other brewer in town who uses DE is my former employer, which is who taught me how to filter anyway. I ran his filter for 6 years, filtering 60-120bbls a week. I have tried everything I know of, which is why Im reaching out to probrewer.....

[oppigards]

we had a low floc yeast in the past, with our 2sq filter we could filter about 35 hl, with our high floc yeast we normally filter 75 hl, so if there is a problem with filtration 14 hl there is truly something wrong. the only beer that we are not able to filtrate is our porter, but it does not matter. If there is a problem to filtrate more than a few bbl, it sounds that your dosing pump is not working. No matter how much yeast that is in suspension, you should be able to filter at least 14 hl with a high dosing rate with a 2sq filter. Maybe you have a too fine kiselguhr.

[NYSBrewer]

Im sure the pump is working, as I can see it dosing once I start it. The DE I am using is FW-50 for the body feed, which my supplier said is 8-10 micron. The FW 12 is .8-1 micron. Is that too fine? Since I am on a pub situation, I am just looking to remove yeast.

[dick murton]

It sounds as though you are simply not adding enough powder for the loading of yeast and protein. Undoubtedly the long cold storage time on for instance the Kolsch allows far more to settle out. If your dosing pump and injection system will cope, simply add 50 % more powder to the mix and see if that makes any difference

What do the different beers look like up against a bright light or better still a set of black & white stripes. The fuzzier the edges, the more powder you will need to add. I'm afraid it is a case of trial and error, so the sugestion of 50 % extra is simply an indication that a fairly drastic change might be necessary. You can always add more, or add less in the future to improve run length or reduce powder costs. If you have pressure gauges on the inlet and outlet, aim for about a 2 - 3 psi increase in diff per hour. More than that tends to blind the filter far too rapidly

Good luck

[NYSBrewer]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Looks like what I will try next will be more DE, and a slower start with a higher dose. PLease, if there are more suggestions out there, keep the thread going.

[pbutlert]

Pre-coating with the 8-10 micron DE sounds good, but in a pub situation, no packaging, I would be using a body feed/dosing grade much looser than .8-1.0 microns. Try a bag rated at 3-5 and see what that does for your speed and be sure to monitor clarity for a few weeks.

[liammckenna]

I agree that 0.8-1.0 micron is way too tight. Remember that your filter also has an element of of depth filtration.

Try a 30/70 mix for your body feed and see what happens. Dose as high as possible until your problem comes under control. Do you have a racking valve on your tank? A yeast 'slug' early on will blind your filter pretty instantly.

Pax.

Liam

[NYSBrewer]

I have a racking, port, but no racking arm. I always blow out the valve a few times before I begin to get rid of those nasty "slugs". When you say try 30/70 in my body feed, what do you mean? I have ordered another bag of DE that is 3-5 micron, and was gonna try that. I was talking with another brewer in my region last night, and he sugested trying the 8-10 for precoat and body feed.

[liammckenna]

Do you have ability to do yeast counts on filtered beer?

Precoat should definitely be entirely 8-10.

If you really want sterility put a second precoat of you 0.8-1.0 micron on as well before body feed and ensuring to clean/rinse well dosing reservoir between precoats. I would avoid this though and use a cartridge filtration into kegs from bright, if you're looking for longer keg shelf life/absence of any yeast in your kegs.

Body feed, I'm suggesting you try anyways, should be 30% 0.8-1.0 micron and 70% of the 8-10.

Dose heavily during body feed.

Pax.

Liam

[En' Garde]

A couple more "tricks" to try:

1) precoat with a sandwich of DE, use the fine grade first ~4 lbs. then ~ 4 lbs. of coarse grade. It can help with blinding issues.
2) after precoat slow the filter flow way down, like to 20 hL/hr
3) as you do "the move", open inlet valve then gently open the filter outlet and slowly close the recirculation valve, this will slow the actual flow of turbid beer into the filter and by manipulating those 2 valves while looking at the sight glass you can further avoid blinding. This will water the beer down a bit though so...
4) after the rough part goes through you can increase the flow back to ~ 40hL/hr, personally I wouldn't go faster.
5) if you have run the filter excessively at high pressure and low flow you may want to consider removing the filter plates and soak in caustic and possibly pressure wash them.

Cheers

Eric

[gabewilson50]

I have a racking, port, but no racking arm. I always blow out the valve a few times before I begin to get rid of those nasty "slugs". When you say try 30/70 in my body feed, what do you mean? I have ordered another bag of DE that is 3-5 micron, and was gonna try that. I was talking with another brewer in my region last night, and he sugested trying the 8-10 for precoat and body feed.

1. Racking arms are overrated. Dump the yeast out the bottom valve until it starts to run clear, then do a quick open of the racking valve to clear out any yeast in the port/valve. That should be sufficient for clearing out yeast. Blowing out the valve a few times as you mentioned doesn't necessarily get rid of yeast plugs, which will always make for a crappy filter day by quickly blinding your filter.

2. If I can address the 30/70 comment, it means use 70% of the 8-10 micron and 30% of the 0.8-1 micron as your feed. This gives you an average pore size of 5-6 micron, because the 2 are well mixed. Average size of brewers yeast is about 6 microns, so you may get a fair amount of yeast passing through if you're filtering with only the 8-10 micron DE.

3. En' Garde had some pretty good suggestions. Play with your outlet and bypass valves to regulate flow. Check your dosing rate, if you're increasing differential pressure too quickly, it could likely be from insufficient dosing. The more your pressure increases, the more you'll need to dose the DE, which could be done by adding more DE to the dosing tank (higher concentration) or slowly cracking the bypass valve more and more open (slower flow).

[NYSBrewer]

Great suggestions guys, thanks. I will start to play around, and hopefully will find the "sweet spot" soon. I will post my results as I find them. Thanks again.

[Rob Creighton]

The plunger on the out sight glas drops from 50hl/hour to 30/hr in a matter of minutes and then beer moves to a trickle. I am using FW-50 for a body feed, and FW-12 for dosing.

Wow Tim,

You've got me here. I can't imagine running a 2 sq m filter at 50 hl/hr which was designed for wine with a much lower yeast load. We (the NA craft brewing movement have put the equipment to use but it was never designed for the yeast load we have wide open). I design my filtrations to run at 1 hl every 5 minutes, total run 23 hl (20 bbl). I run from the racking arm valve (1.75 hl above the bottom valve) if from the fermentor or from the bottom valve of our aging tanks. There is no way to run high yeast loads through any filter without it blinding the filter because you can't break a blind without cleanout.

I use FW-12 (white) as precoat as per the manufacturer spec plus a little. I put 3kg (6.6 lbs) on as quickly as possible. I follow with 2kg (4.4 lbs) of FP-3 as body feed. I close the control valve completely and then open it slightly. I use a small Beer Ace pump instead of the piston pump on the filter because the Italian pumps are notorius for as being crap and mine fails constantly. The Beer Ace only has enough juice to pump into a couple of bar but mine never gets to that point and it never fails. If we had the budget I would get a small peristaltic pump. I have 5 psi back pressure on my bright tank and 15 psi pressure on my feed tank.

I have a 10" 5 micron string wound filter in a housing as a trap on the outfeed. The feed is constant and matches the yeast load from all styles of beer. All my beers are filtered and bright upon presentation. Our storage reaches approx. 33 but never achieves 29 so my ability to prevent chill haze is questionable. If you go from the bottom of a 60 degree cone, you will get bursts of yeast that will blind the filter (unless you have some magic method of preventing this from happening). A shallow cone will allow you to eliminate the yeast plug and probably won't slip into the filtration stream until the end. I never have variability in filtration. Hope this helps.

[dick murton]

The guys like Filtrox reckon on a flow rate of 3.5 hl / square metre / hr - so 50 hl off a 2 square metre filter is going some. We normally run somewhat below that, even though you do get the filter filling up slightly unevenly as a result

[TNbrewer]

If you go from the bottom of a 60 degree cone, you will get bursts of yeast that will blind the filter (unless you have some magic method of preventing this from happening)

I find blanket statements like these to be problematic. With one week cold storage(sometimes less, in a pinch ;) ), and dumping yeast every few days, we go from the bottom of a 60 deg cone every time, and never have any problems. No magic to it. I can see the occasional plug of yeast go through the intake hose, but the pressure gauge doesn't flinch. The beauty of depth filtration is that it can handle a bit more load and variability of load.

[dick murton]

"If you go from the bottom of a 60 degree cone, you will get bursts of yeast that will blind the filter (unless you have some magic method of preventing this from happening)"

If you are getting plugs of yeast off a conical, you are taking the yeast off too fast. The removal rate needs to be slow enough to allow the yeast to slide down the cone. A shallow cone or dish bottom vessel will have to be run off slower than a steep walled cane. A 60 degree cone is pretty steep so it shouldn't take much slowing down to allow it to settle out cleanly. If you leave the yeast on for too long before removal, this can also cause it to get sticky, presumably due to autolysis.

[Trub-Man]

I think you are using to loose of a filter aid. If I read correctly your bodyfeed is more corse than your precoat. See link to grade from EP

http://epminerals.com/celatomgrade.html

We use the following grades in our filter
1st pre-coat with fw-12 recirc for minimum 20 mins longer if you use cellulose.
2nd pre-coat with fp-4
and bodyfeed with fp -4

Try this first if still getting filter bleed try adding powdered cellulose to your first pre-coat need a long strand cellulose fibre.
Good luck.

[Larry Horwitz]

OK. First off there are plenty of theread about DE filtration here on the site...but I'll give you 3 tips that will change your filtrations right away. #1 use more dirt. Lots more dirt. a 2 meter Della should be able to hold over 20 pounds of DE. #2 go slower....waaaaay slower. If you slow things down you'll be able to get more dirt into the dose. These little filters are for wine which is much clearer and just aren't meant to run wide open with a 100 million per ml soil load. #3 ignore all of the advice you hear about blending DE. The people who sell dirt will all tell you the same thing: there is a reason it is sold in grades. You want a particular size distribution. if you need a bigger or smaller size BUY it, don't try and make it. I use Celit 512z which is 0.5 darcey perm (dirt is measured in perm NOT in microns) that should give you about the same filtration as a 3 micron nominal sheet filter...but YMMV depeding on how you filter.

send me email any time and I'll give you direct feed back. larryh@ironhillbrewery.com

FYI I can get 60 bbls of well aged lager through my 2 meter...and 20 of really bad (10 x 10^6 cells per ml) ale with less than 2 bar of DP.

add: 1# per meter of pre-coat. Average body feed of 1# per bbl (less if you have a pretty clear beer)