Why am I using a Velo Leaf filter?

[Woolsocks]

I inherited (from previous brewer) a Velo leaf "DE" filter, 4 sq m., for a 15bbl brewpub.

Why do I continue to use it instead of selling it and getting a nice simple sheet filter with no moving parts, easier and quicker cleaning, and won't break on me all the time?

If I took all the money we've spent on parts for the leaf filter over the last two years, I could have bought a plate-and-frame sheet filter and two years' worth of filter sheets easily. This isn't even counting the labor for using it and repairing it.

For the big guys, I know using plain DE vs. sheets is a cost savings, but for a little guy? I don't see it.

I'm ready to sell this sucker to a bigger brewery and replace with a simple plate-and-frame or cartridge filter. Can you tell me why I shouldn't?

[pbutlert]

DE filters are much better for removing solids. Sheet filters are better for "polishing". If you have a medium or low flocculating yeast, you will have problems achieving proper clarity with a plate and frame filter, IMO. Also, I believe the general rule of thumb is 1 sq. meter per 10 Bbls., so if you are just filtering 15 at a time it may be a little big.

[Woolsocks]

I thought that the sheets were made of DE/Perlite/PVPP/etc. just like the layer of filteraid on a leaf in my leaf filter.

If the material through which the beer flows is the same, why would one remove different stuff than the other?

[beertje46]

Your Velo is a depth filter. Look at the spacing between the leaves. You can fill that volume with solids; filter agent, celulose, yeast, etc. Now look at the space between the filter plates on a plate and frame. See the difference? Much less space to fill with crap.

[tarmadilo]

I've used both and prefer a leaf filter. I found it easier to clean, easier to sanitize, and, while certainly not trouble-free, definitely less of a buttpain.

It does sound like you might be better served with a smaller one, but as I've been out of brewing for about ten years now, I could be wrong! :cool:

Cheers, Tim

[beertje46]

I've used both and prefer a leaf filter. I found it easier to clean, easier to sanitize, and, while certainly not trouble-free, definitely less of a buttpain.

It does sound like you might be better served with a smaller one, but as I've been out of brewing for about ten years now, I could be wrong! :cool:

Cheers, Tim
I started to say; You use it because it's already there and paid for:D

The learning curve is higher for the leaf filter but once you get it down there's no turning back. With a 4 meter filter on a 15 bbl. system and a proper number of transfer tees, with some planning, you should be able to filter three batches back-to-back with one precoat. Start with the lightest beer and push out with the next lightest, repeat. Then you have three tanks to clean with one set-up and three batches of beer to brew.

[Woolsocks]

There's no question you can get more stuff through a leaf filter than a sheet filter without blinding, but how often in a brewpub does one have 3 batches to filter back-to-back? I've done two (occasionally) but never had the schedule work right for three.

With a sheet filter, wouldn't I just filter batch #1, backflush with hot liquor, then do batch 2? Sounds easier to me.

[Woolsocks]

How about the quality of filtration? Is there something inherent in leaf filters that makes it easier to get clear beer without stripping?

[beertje46]

There's no question you can get more stuff through a leaf filter than a sheet filter without blinding, but how often in a brewpub does one have 3 batches to filter back-to-back? I've done two (occasionally) but never had the schedule work right for three.

With a sheet filter, wouldn't I just filter batch #1, backflush with hot liquor, then do batch 2? Sounds easier to me.

When I worked for the Bluegrass Brewing Co. brewpub (left 7 years ago), I'd filter 3 batches on a regular basis with a 2 meter Della-Toffola erosion (sealed dosing tank, no dosing pump) filter. No back-flush required or possible on a leaf filter, which saves time.


How about the quality of filtration? Is there something inherent in leaf filters that makes it easier to get clear beer without stripping?
IMHO, there is no real difference in the quality as long as you are comparing apples to apples in micron size. Quality of life, yes, faster filter runs, faster set-up/tear-down, more time to spend on the things you'd rather do then filter...

But hey, it's my two cents worth and I have always used leaf filters so I might be spoiled. Right now I use a 7.5 meter Velo in a 10 meter housing, so it's scalable.

[Woolsocks]

Beerje,

If I'm understanding you right, with the leaf filters, once you're up the learning curve (which I think I am after 2 years and hundreds of runs) you *save* time? I'm not seeing any time savings, personally. What am I doing wrong?

My filter is stored packed with caustic from the previous cleaning. I drain that, rinse, tighten the plates down, CIP sanitize, drain, precoat, filter, chase with liquor, drain filter, knock the DE off the plates with a hose, backflush filter, CIP with caustic, done. This process takes me about 6 hours if all goes well. 6 hours to filter 15 barrels seems slow, not fast.

Assuming I'm doing short runs (1 15-bbl batch, occasionally 2), where does the time-saving come in?

[redlodge.sam]

Beerje,

If I'm understanding you right, with the leaf filters, once you're up the learning curve (which I think I am after 2 years and hundreds of runs) you *save* time? I'm not seeing any time savings, personally. What am I doing wrong?

My filter is stored packed with caustic from the previous cleaning. I drain that, rinse, tighten the plates down, CIP sanitize, drain, precoat, filter, chase with liquor, drain filter, knock the DE off the plates with a hose, backflush filter, CIP with caustic, done. This process takes me about 6 hours if all goes well. 6 hours to filter 15 barrels seems slow, not fast.

Assuming I'm doing short runs (1 15-bbl batch, occasionally 2), where does the time-saving come in?

We have a four sq meter velo filter and filter anywhere from 15 to 45 bbl at once with it. We sanitize (45 minutes), precoat (30 minutes), filter (a little slower than 1 bbl per minute), clean, rinse, and drain (1.5 hours).

my brewer uses it way more than i do and is far more proficient than i am, but i prefer DE to plate and frame. As alluded to in an earlier post, plate and frame filters cannot handle heavy sediment loads well.

with velo, keep a spare dosing pump and seals for the main pump on hand. it takes forever to get spare parts if they are not in stock in the US.

good luck,
sam

[redlodge.sam]

also make sure there is as little dissolved CO2 in the unfiltered beer as possible. my velo dislikes dissolved CO2.

Sam

[Woolsocks]

OK, after reading Sam's post, I cranked up my flow rate and cranked the beer through at around .75 bbl/min. Managed the whole process in 4 hr. Filtering with a vengeance! That'll teach the filter to break!

[leftnutbrown]

Hi All!

I agree with Sam, DE filters are the way to go. We have a 5m prospero and it is,so far, the best filtration system ever. However, we do use perlite instead of DE, but are filtrations are just as easy as with DE, and it costs less. Usually we filter a min. of 40-60 BBL's with a total time of about 4-5 hrs. w/ clean up. I have used both types of systems in the past and I have always perfer DE filters. These filters do take more time to learn how to use, but they don't leak, so oxidation is less of a factor in the final product. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

Howard

[Woolsocks]

OK, oxygen was another issue of mine -- seems like a DE filter would pick up MORE O2 because of the slurry tank. Then again, the filter sheets on a sheet filter would be exposed to the air.... How about a cartridge filter? Anyone like those?

Perhaps leaf filters are the way to go and mine just sucks? I've only used one, and have repaired it several times. Annual filter repairs budget is around $1200 on average. Is that comparable to what you guys spend?

[Bob Tyler]

Look into Lenticular filters. These are just like sheet filters but in a enclosed housing. These filters are used all over the craft brewing industry.

There are several advantages of using this technology. Especially when filter 15 bbls...

The filter modules can be backflushed / Cleaned and reused. The enclosed system does not leak beer to ground like standard P&F. Smaller foot print too...

They are very easy to use and there is minimal beer losses as well.

The night before a filtration
use 180 degree water and sterilize for 20 min: let filter cool over night
the next morning push out cool water with C02
filter beer (push beer with C02 or pump)
at the end of filtration,push out remaining beer with c02
Back flush modules at half the beer forward flow rate for 5-10 minutes
pack filter housing with 7-10 PSI of c02

When you need to filter again start over.

Depending on how your yeast flocks out as well as many other variables will ultimately determine filter module life. Filter life will determine cost peer bbl. Generaly the cost of using Lenticualr filters is slightly more then DE filters / P&F. However the ease of use / time savings and minimal beer losses justify the extra cost.

[redlodge.sam]

my 4 sq meter velo is a 1995 or 1996. i have had it since 2002. i have had to replace the dosing pump, main seals on the pump, and have had to dicker with the electric switches a bit over the years. but i havent spent $1200/year on repairs. what have you had to repair?

sam

[beertje46]

my 4 sq meter velo is a 1995 or 1996. i have had it since 2002. i have had to replace the dosing pump, main seals on the pump, and have had to dicker with the electric switches a bit over the years. but i havent spent $1200/year on repairs. what have you had to repair?

sam
I wondered the same thing. On my old 2 meter velo, I repalced a mechanical seal or two on the pump and my old 3 meter della had the dosing pump resealed 2-3 times. I used both over 15 years, both are still in service in other breweries. I'll bet I haven't spent 1200. in 15 years of repairs.

Woolsocks, what is breaking?

[Woolsocks]

Replace dosing pump and dosing pump motor: $1600
Replace shaft in the middle of the plates with thicker one: $250
Replace seals and housing on dose pump several times: ???
Replace main pump motor twice at $600-900 a crack
Replace pump seals 3 times @ $60 each
Numerous visits from the electrician to fix switches, etc. in the control plate: ???
Downtime, brewer labor:$$$!!!

Like I said earlier, perhaps most leaf filters are great and mine sucks.

[beertje46]

Replace dosing pump and dosing pump motor: $1600
Replace shaft in the middle of the plates with thicker one: $250
Replace seals and housing on dose pump several times: ???
Replace main pump motor twice at $600-900 a crack
Replace pump seals 3 times @ $60 each
Numerous visits from the electrician to fix switches, etc. in the control plate: ???
Downtime, brewer labor:$$$!!!

Like I said earlier, perhaps most leaf filters are great and mine sucks.
It does indeed!

[Larry Horwitz]

there are lots of ways to get your O2 down with a dirt filter...try slurrying your DE with hot liquor water, for instance.

also, if you decide you hate that filter let me know....I'd buy it in a second!

cheers

[Frozenapple]

My filter is stored packed with caustic from the previous cleaning
How long do you store your filter with caustic? i.e how long between filtration runs? If it's a few days, then this might be why you have to replace all those components on your filter...

[Woolsocks]

How long do you store your filter with caustic? i.e how long between filtration runs? If it's a few days, then this might be why you have to replace all those components on your filter...

Typically 6 days at a time. It's weak caustic, though, and my caustic supplier assures me this cannot hurt the filter. If the components are so cheap they can't take caustic.... then I think they're gonna die anyway.

[Geoff Logan]

also make sure there is as little dissolved CO2 in the unfiltered beer as possible. my velo dislikes dissolved CO2.

Sam
I'm curious about that aspect of filtering with a leaf filter. I've always heard the same thing but have since been told that a little dissolved CO2 "should" make filtering easier. We'll see tomorrow.

Also, o2 pickup will be nominal with a leaf filter. (I thought the same thing). The slurry pump input is covered with liquid and should minimize o2 pickup. Anyway, I feel your pain because I hate filtering too. However, I have a 3 sq. meter velo and do 25 bbls in about 3 1/2 hrs. What fun it is! Good luck.

Geoff Logan

[jallen]

DE is definitely the way to go.

We run a 5 sq. m at NO more than 42 hl/hr, then through a 5 micron filter, then through a 1.0 micron filter to the Brites. With set up, pre-coat, filtration and CIP, we are looking at 5 hours tops for 120 hls of filtered beer. Do understand there is an upper limit on what your DE filter can do, in terms of volumes. Although there are many variables like type of beer, age, temperature, Co2 content, etc., most DE filters (under 12 sq. m) are able to filter for three hours of rated flow, before the plates can't take anymore. And don't always go by manufacturer's specs for pre-coats. There are too many variables that affect what type of pre-coat you need. Just experiment!

Cheers,

Don

[The Gooch]

For O2 pick-up in regards to DE filtration I:

* fill a clean keg with H2O above 85C a couple days before filtration and blow CO2 through it and pressurize it. I use this water for my dosing slurry. It has far less O2 than regular water and it is cold by the time I need it.

* I have a carb stone in my dosing tank. I bubble CO2 through it to further help drive off O2 in my dosing slurry.

* I add a little bit of anti-oxidant to my slurry tank.

* Filter under pressure.

As for CO2 I totally disagree with assertion you need low dissolved CO2 in the beer for ease of DE filtration. I naturally carbonate all my beer and run completely carbonated beer through my filter. You have to filter under pressure to do this. Have a bar of pressure on both your fermenter and your bright, connect a equalization line (hook a line from fermenter gas in to brite tank gas in, open and you have the same pressure on both tanks).

Also if you are worried about dissolved CO2 wreaking havoc, just put a couple of pounds of pressure on both tanks and filter your still beer, that would help keep any foaming down. Also, moving beer under pressure may help reduce general O2 pickup because the beer will always be above atmospheric pressure. It won't exclude it but it may help.

[BrewerTL]

[QUOTE=Bob Tyler]Look into Lenticular filters.

Although we don't follow this exact procedure with ours, I do like our lenticular filter. I only filter 14 Bbls at a time, but it's easy to use and I get great life out of my filter modules.

[chantal]

An enclosed filter system (stainless steel filter housing) is sanitary and limits O2 pick up during filtration. There are lenticular filter housings and membrane filter housings available on the market. Cost of Lenticular filter housing and membrane filter housing is less than a plate & frame filter or DE filter of same capacity (filter surface area). Enclosed filter is reusable which aids in cost saving of filter media, and another advantage is extremely low product losses. Lenticular filter and membrane filter system is much easier to use and with minimal maintenance cost compared to DE or plate & frame filter. Lenticular filters use filter sheet that are constructed into a module, and is expandable. Membrane filter housing uses filter cartridge, range from a single filter cartridge up to 12 cartridges. Brewery in 7 bbl. to 60 bbl. brewing capacity should consider Lenticular Filter Housing and Membrane Filter Housing for equipment cost saving, easy operation, low product losses and minimal maintenance cost.

[IAW]

An enclosed filter system (stainless steel filter housing) is sanitary and limits O2 pick up during filtration. There are lenticular filter housings and membrane filter housings available on the market. Cost of Lenticular filter housing and membrane filter housing is less than a plate & frame filter or DE filter of same capacity (filter surface area). Enclosed filter is reusable which aids in cost saving of filter media, and another advantage is extremely low product losses. Lenticular filter and membrane filter system is much easier to use and with minimal maintenance cost compared to DE or plate & frame filter. Lenticular filters use filter sheet that are constructed into a module, and is expandable. Membrane filter housing uses filter cartridge, range from a single filter cartridge up to 12 cartridges. Brewery in 7 bbl. to 60 bbl. brewing capacity should consider Lenticular Filter Housing and Membrane Filter Housing for equipment cost saving, easy operation, low product losses and minimal maintenance cost.

Are suggesting a lenticular filter can be used in lieu of a DE filter?

I would love that but my understanding is that you still must lager for a while and/or fine the beer to reduce the turbidity to a point that u will not plug the media?

[BrewinLou]

You would plug a Lenticular without a primary or a long lagering period. Lenticular are designed as a polishing filter. We just bought one as a trap/polish filter. We will eventually buy a trap filter to put inbetween our DE and Lenticular. When our beers were tested we ended up going with a fairly course grade of filter media. But that is still getting our beer twice as tight as they were with just the DE.

[chantal]

There are many grades of filter module (from 15 micron to 0.2 micron nominal) for Lenticular Filter which is identical to sheet filter. Selecting proper particle retention grade results in cost savings and flow efficiency. Simply change out different grade of filter module, you can do polishing filtration or pre-bottling sterile filtration using the same machine.

[IAW]

There are many grades of filter module (from 15 micron to 0.2 micron nominal) for Lenticular Filter which is identical to sheet filter. Selecting proper particle retention grade results in cost savings and flow efficiency. Simply change out different grade of filter module, you can do polishing filtration or pre-bottling sterile filtration using the same machine.

That is what I thought. It is an alternative to pad/sheet filtration.

[Bill Madden]

If anyone out there is tired of using their pressure leaf filter and wants to part with a gently used one I would be happy to take it off their hands.

In the market for one now and I liked working with the ones I have had in the past.

Cheers,

Bill Madden
CEO/Brewer
Mad Fox Brewing Co.
Falls Church, Virginia